[elmore]

Hey thanks everybody for soming by. I do appreciate you taking the time to come by to view the Forums. Hopefully, You'll find some valuable information here. I'll do my best to help you out as much as I can. Please do me a favor, If you like what you see or do get some good information here please pass this site along to one of your firends as I am completely dependant upon word of mouth.


BTW there are only 2 site rules here at screaming electron,

1. You must have fun.



2. Please be courteous to others, everyone here has a different experience level. The goal of this web site is to help people, specifically newcomers to BSD, maybe even some old BSD hacks as well. Please refrain from berating anyone here. That is not the environment I am striding towards.


Thanks for coming by and signing up,


-elmore-[/quote]

[psxndc]

Please be courteous to others, everyone here has a different experience level.

Thanks for setting up the board. This is something severely needed in the OpenBSD community. All too often I see on newsgroups and mailing lists people jumping down each others throats for asking simple questions.

I realize Theo and company make OpenBSD for themselves. A proactively secure OS for them, by them. I think that's great. But by releasing it as a commercial product, and given it's incredible track record, not even just Theo, but other OpenBSD users have to realize that others are going to buy and use it: people that are not at the technical level other users are.

I wish I were the coder that Theo is. Christ, I wish I were 1/10 the coder Theo is. But the truth of the matter is that I have other priorities and different abilities. I don't want to spend all my time pouring over code or man pages or FAQs. Sure I read the man pages and FAQ more than a few times before asking a question, but if I do end up asking it, I don't want to be skinned alive because I don't fully understand the hashing function blowfish uses or whatever. The "OpenBSD Community" is anything but. It is an oxymoron. The man pages are great, but sometimes things just don't click for me at first. I need to ask questions and have civilized dialogues. It's just the way I learn.

There is a great need for a forum like this: where people can ask questions without being thrown into a fire. If the OpenBSD gurus (i.e. the people that blasted this board on Deadly.org) think this board is beneath them, fine. Stay away. We'll figure it out on our own. Keep your venom and loathing for people you think are beneath you. We'll stay here and _enjoy_ our lame discussions.

</rant>

That being said: Newbies: If you can pick up "Building Linux and OpenBSD Firewalls" really cheap, do so. It has become outdated (it was written for OBSD 2.5) but it _really_ helped me get started. According to their website (http://www.openlysecure.org/) they are working on a 2nd edition, so maybe just wait for that. Regardless, I highly recommend the book. They assume no knowlegde and really explain everything as they walk through it.

-p

[frisco]

The "OpenBSD Community" is anything but. It is an oxymoron.

the @openbsd.org lists are like a country bar; the locals are very wary of newcomers, talk loudly and abrasively (note loud talking gets heard over the din in a bar), and there's at least a weekly full-out bar brawl.
newbie lists are more like the Rainbow Gathering - people are more mellow, nothing is expected, more chatter.

But to say there's no community is wrong.

If you ask a question after having read man pages, specify that you read X, Y and Z, that some parts didnt make sense, why they didnt make sense. The lists *are* about community, and part of that community is not holding on to your own thoughts but noting that others might have problems with that man page too, and you pointing out the parts you had problems with may help others

[psxndc]

But to say there's no community is wrong.

If you ask a question after having read man pages, specify that you read X, Y and Z, that some parts didnt make sense, why they didnt make sense. The lists *are* about community, and part of that community is not holding on to your own thoughts but noting that others might have problems with that man page too, and you pointing out the parts you had problems with may help others

First, let me say the man pages are 99% of the time great, way better than what I've read of their linux counterparts. Second, my issue is not with the man pages per se or not understanding them, I was talking about my problem with the "community". When I think of community, I think of a group of people that _help_ out other people and converse about certain agreed upon topics.

I quote from a recent email from GuyB on misc@openbsd.org regarding GuyA's machine being compromised:


GuyA:
> I have verified that 002_sudo patch is applied....
>
> If I recompile this patch, the problem will be
> temporally solved ???

GuyB:
No, go read the CERT/CC document, god damn it. You'll need to backup
your data and reinstall your machine.

Depending on my mood I find it depressing or funny how idiots like you
have been sheltered all these years due to OpenBSD's stance on security,
and with just one remote vulnerability in the default install, you're
completely fucked. You have no idea what you're doing. Technology won't
save your ass; you actually need to think about how you're using it.

There. I feel better.

Real nice. Does it sound like the GuyA knows what he is doing? Honestly, no. But he's asking for help. And this is what he gets back. The @openbsd.org lists are not a towny bar, they are the towny prisons. You get ass raped on your first day and for the rest of the time you're there, you're somebody's bitch. And it's not just the @openbsd.org lists either. Look at how many people on the deadly.org responded negatively about even the creation of this board.

From deadly.org:
I hate to be negative towards someone who put in a lot of work, but I have to agree with the other commenters that this site looks silly and childish.

Go into the General OpenBSD board and read the FreeBSD vs. OpenBSD threads...

The site will probably be pretty popular with know-it-all high school nerds, however.

and

me too. the reason i got into bsd was because i had a thoughtful and helpful mentor who guided me: MY BRAIN.

and yes, people who are offended/afraid of elitism can go play with themselves away from deadly.org and the mailing lists =] GO FOR IT. PLEASE. =D

And those are the ones not using AC.

The interface is disturbing as well. It's not even "kid's stuff", it's simply retarded. Worse than slashdot.

The community is there, it's just not one that remotely welcomes new comers or people that aren't instant experts. That was my point.

-p

[psxndc]

To be fair, there _are_ helpful people out there. Maybe it's like you said: "The loud talking gets heard over all the din".

I just find myself doing google searches rather than reading the newsgroups. The flames don't usually make it into the top 5 and the good stuff on the newsgroups does :-)

I just find it frustrating because I have written out a well thought out and detailed question more than once to misc@openbsd.org and deleted it before sending because I just didn't want to deal with the tirade. A forum like this is what is needed.

-p

[elmore]

Wow! Thanks. Deadly.org was fairly brutal to me but... A lot of people have come here and joined since that time. Actually I'm glad my site got posted on deadly. I think it's the best thing that could of happend.

As for OBSD's mailling lists, I subscribe to them all, I am very aware of the flames that take place. I'm also aware that there is some great stuff that goes on on those lists. The OpenBSD cummunity that I see is for the most part is a very good one. Just look around this board.

:D

see you in the forums.

[frisco]

[Real nice. Does it sound like the GuyA knows what he is doing?

Guy A was responding to various email from Guy B saying "you've been hacked, go read these docs which will tell you what to do.".
That is, Guy B had already sent email to Guy A outlining steps to take.

The community is there, it's just not one that remotely welcomes new comers or people that aren't instant experts. That was my point.
and mine too.
our difference is that you consider harsh language akin to anal rape whereas i consider it comparable to a rowdy bar.

[frisco]

While we're on the (off)topic of things read on misc@, reading Theo's last (ten points if you can figure out the language that grammar is inherited from)-

Geez! Is everything here have to a bloody repeat question?

reminded me of src/usr.bin/mg/theo.c , which contains a bunch of Theo classic statements.
You can also view these by running mg(1) and typing:
esc-x theo [return]
then hit return multiple times.

[psxndc]

and mine too.
our difference is that you consider harsh language akin to anal rape whereas i consider it comparable to a rowdy bar.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive. But I look at it like this:

Say you know nothing about color copiers. Yeah you've looked through some sites talking about them, maybe enough to become familiar with the lingo, but you want to ask somebody that _knows_ color copiers. You go to the color copier store asking "what makes copier A better than B" and rather than the sales person calmly... you know what, forget that. You don't even get a response from the sales person because he didn't get a chance. Instead _another customer_ in the store starts screaming at you first because you don't know that the Cannon UltraDeluxe can do 3 billion dpi and berating you because "How could you be so dumb about color copiers?!". That's more what I liken it to.

I applaud your tolerance. I really do. I've just seen a lot of the crap and I think it really sucks so I let it get me down. It's a great OS and there are a lot of helpful ppl. It just seems that the ass/niceguy ratio is a lot higher for OBSD. Anyway, I've beat this horse to death, so ... next topic. :-)

[tarballed]

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents here.

I absolutely love these boards. I cant express how much these boards have helped me and how comfortable I feel here.

I actually feel like I can come to these boards, post a question (which I seem to do a lot :) ) and dont have to worry about getting flamed. It's a really good feeling.

The people on these boards are outstanding. Take elmore for example. The other night, I was having problems getting my firewall up. I started a thread and elmore came to my aid. We went back and forth, me posting errors, elmore posting resolutions. What really touched me was how patient and nice elmore was. Always helping me and keeping that friendly touch to the thread. I cant express how much elmore helped me as well as bsdjunkie, frisco and minion. You guys are great.

I do take the time to research, read th MAN pages as I find them to be ver informative, however at times, confusing.
Since im very new to the Open Source world (rougly 2 1/2 months), I tend to double check my work, make sure i'm doing everything correctly. That is why sometimes I will post and ask, "Hey, just want to make sure im doing this correctly...."

I know I have much to learn and im very excited about learning. It's never ending, but I look forward to each day as something to learn, something to try.

I cant say it enough about these boards. Boards are great, people are fantastic. Im glad to be hear and look forward to reading these boards each day.

Thanks again to everyone out there.

Tarballed

[psxndc]

Tarballed,
Don't forget to post your final solution/walkthrough somewhere. Conversations are great but tutorials are even better. Maybe another n00b along the way will have the same problem you do and follow your advice. :-)

Cheers,
p

[tarballed]

Don't forget to post your final solution/walkthrough somewhere.

I will do. I'll write a complete walkthrough on what I did to get setup, what troubleshooting I did and what the resolution was. Give me a couple of days and I should have it up.

Tarballed